In the past I've had connections with people who later became alcoholics, drug OD-ers, and in one case a murderer. Does that taint me? In short, I think you're digging a bit too deep.

David Tibet collaborated with well known nazi, Rikki (Chuck E's in love) Lee Jones.

Douglas Peirce was in Crisis along with Tony Wakeford. Both went onto form Death in June. Wakeford then started After the Ruins and then Sol Invictus. Crisis played at RAR and Anti Nazi League gigs. I think both of them were Socialist Workers party members? The drummer from Crisis went onto drum for Theatre of Hate.

Sabenji, I still fail to see how this is relevant to Crass members. The Eklektik was published 30 years ago. Are you suggesting Andy was a closet-nazi back then? Or now? I'm not surprised there are numerous links between various neo-nazi groups, there always have been, but what on earth have Steve or Andy to do with it? So they've known some of these nazi fucks in the past. Big deal. What's your point?

Oh nearly forgot the point, re Crass/Tibet connection... they don't know each other very well.  Little Annie, who lived at DH for ages and toured with Crass etc (see her photo in that live photos thread!) was friends with Tibet and I think she introduced him to Gee, Penny etc.  Tibet very much admires their work both in Crass and post-Crass.  They often pass regards to each other via me, but I don't believe the connection is much deeper than that.

And if you study Current 93's work I don't think you can find anything which lends credence to your allegations.

David Tibet is no way a Nazi, if anything he's more a Libertarian.
Allison your dead right about Death in June, boys trying to shock.

A message from Tony Wakeford....

http://www.tursa.com/message.html

Speaking of Crisis, did Crass and Crisis knew each others? They both played in the same period (Crisis ended in '80 or '81, though), had similar message (leaning more toward radical left than anarchist for Crisis, maybe) and both played a really unconventional kind of punk rock leaning toward post punk.

I came across that band maybe 8 or 9 years ago while reading a book by Stuart Home (I never heard about them before despite my interest in UK punk), and then purchased one of their record and was blown away. Probably the punk band I listened to the most in the last 10 years. There's a whole chapter about them in that book (Cranked up Really High: Genre Theory And Punk Rock) in which Stewart Home (who seemed to be a big fan back then) related many stories about Crisis beating up the crap of nazi skinheads. They were definitly pro-active in fighting fascism and bonheads. Maybe they were more similar to Conflict in that case...

Last edited by me2 (2009-08-22 23:20:30)

The funny thing about Home's near obsessional 'outing' of Wakeford as a nazi/former NF member is that when I first met Home, which would have been around 1984 or 1985 he was Death In June No.1 fan. A fact he conveniently ommitts from his recent writings on the subject.

Sabenji wrote:

As I said, I'm only interested in all the facts, if there is such a thing. Don't know too much about Stewart Home, about his reputation, but at least he seems to have gathered quite a bit of knowledge about that subject matter. Mixer, might be.
My only point in here is, to which degree there's really a fascist involvement in all this and how it relates to CRASS and associates. Especially, as this sort of playing with some of the most big and terrible things seems to be absorbed tongue-in-cheek to a certain degree, even by folks on here.

in short, there isn't any Crass 'involvement'. Wakeford, Death In June, Fire & Ice & countless others involved in that scene quite incontestably ARE Nazis - something I would be very surprised to find they have ever denied. There's always been an element of incestuous collaboration between DIJ + C93 but as far as i'm aware Mr Ignorant's only contribution to either stable was contrinuting some vocals to an Earth Covers Earth track, an album which indeed DOES feature several nazi 'musicians' so it was a pretty fucking stupid project to involve himself with, as i'm sure, with hindsight he recognises himself. 

Similarily, I can't really imagine Tibet genuinely being into all that guff. Though he has been into about every form of foolishness imaginable - from Crowleyian 'magik' to the catholicism I understand he has converted to in recent times, and i expect his dalliances with rune baloney, paganism etc has brought him into contact with elements who more balanced types would conscientiously avoid.

Home is good at the nerd-boy research stuff but , really, I wouldn't trust him to tell me the time and much of what he writes is simply to bolster his own kudos within his sychophantic social circle.

Sabenji wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZYdR3ZUC0

Good gig, eh? I think Steve jumps at 07.20 (and probably gets pasted 'til 07.45 ).

That looks quite good actually. Musically a lot better than the pensioner's piss C93 recorded later.

Take it Annie Anxiety played this gig, going by her banner being visible on the stage? I expect she sort of 'bridged' those scenes to an extent as I remember her enthusing to me about certain proto-industrial acts at the time. Always find it a sad reflection on the conservatism of the day that Annie never received the recognition she deserved, not only for her music, but simply for the bravery of facing hall after hall of gobbing morons who'd rather have been pogoing about to DIRT or suchlike.

Last edited by SmutPeddler (2009-08-25 13:04:14)

http://wassonii.blogspot.com/2008/04/br … ition.html

your point, yan?

and strange you didn't see any indications of DIJ's sympathies on the occassion you saw them. When I did, by chance, a few years ago at Electrowerks the place was a veritable SS fancy-dress ball with more runeic emblems and crooked crosses in evidence than a Nuremburg rally.

NB: Completely agree with what you are saying regarding this topic, Sabenji, however I think it is important to separate genuine nazis with the likes of Tibet, who appears to me simply an ideologically schizophrenic (albeit dilletante) idiot which is reflected by the imagery he flirts with + company he keeps.

personally I almost find those who continue to utilise this imagery as a marketing tool (within their milieu this being what it is) as loathesome and pathetic as the flag-flying white power skinhead bands. But, fact remains, to label certain cretins nazis only devalues the accusation when applied to more incontestably deserving figures.

Also, it should be pointed out that during the period Ignorant collaborated with dolts from this camp their imagery and proclamations weren't as overt as they later became and it was generally regarded as a continuation of the TGesque utilisation of such imagery for its 'transgressive' nature.